New Impeller for HF DC?

[DarthVader]

I found a new impeller in a thread for my dust collector according to a thread on hear, its the grizzly 12 3/4" x 3 1/2" part number P1028Z2010 and they happened to be on back order till may but june or july is more likely according to the lady at grizzly. They also happen to be 110 bucks plus shipping and tax! They were only 80 dollars not too long ago according to that thread.

So i have a couple of questions, since there were so many different versions of the hf dc, how do i know if it will fit first off? My arbor looks to be 3/4". I have a Seco 2hp DC that has a 3phase motor unfortunately:-(  as well with a plastic 12" Impeller but the arbor looks to be 13/16" with a different arbor key so no dice.

Is there anybody else who has a larger Impeller that fits the HF DC? And hopefully it wont costs as much as the grizzly?

Or is there anywhere is to get the grizzly impeller for cheaper?

I just built my seperator with 6" ports so I wouldn't have to build another one in the future and I would like as much air flow as posible, however, its doing really well with my wimpy 10" Impeller. Hehe Any help would be appreciated.

[dbhost]

Not sure myself. I would be interested in knowing though. A guy with some sheet metal skills and time on his hands could make a few bucks knocking 12" impellers for HF DCs out as long as they were well made and affordable...

[dbhost]

That's a fair question...

Considering the HF DC runs for, and let's average it because Harbor Freight sales are all over the place these days, but let's say $150.00. I would think something along the lines of $50.00 to $75.00 would be in the range for that...

[bill70j]

You would have to knock out quite a number of impellers at $75 a pop just to recover design and tooling costs.  Rotating equipment, especially a well balanced bladed and vaned impeller, is a lot more complex than it appears, in my experience.

[dbhost]

I shudder to think of a number. It should be high to say the least...

Just like with knocking out production volumes in woodworking, it should be all in setting up the jigs though. If you can knock them out for say $25.00 a piece your cost, then sell them for $50.00 to $75.00 each...

If you can guess, I am taking a W.A.G. here...

[bill70j]

I agree with you, Chuck.  Intricate machinery, if well made, requires a lot of labor to manufacture, despite all the tooling - and even robotics employed today.  You cannot compete as an individual against industry that can mass produce.

I once built a prototype replacement steering wheel for a vintage Mopar muscle car made out of solid walnut, with the hope building a lot of them and turning a decent profit.  It was an exact duplicate of the cheap imitation plastic original.  Lots of angled tenoing jigs, circle templates, glue-up jigs, etc. and also many hours of labor.   It generated a lot of activity on ebay - eventually selling for $410.  I made a couple of more, but never got my labor costs above about $2.00/Hr.

[dbhost]

How is it then that Lee Styron can make a profit with his Shark Guards? They are an excellent, small shop built product that is IMHO second to none. And I am relatively certain that he isn't farming his production out to some sampan factory in China.

Yes I know he charges more than $75.00 for his guards, but they at least to me, appear to be far more complex than an impeller for a dust collector...

[bill70j]

How is it then that Lee Styron can make a profit with his Shark Guards? They are an excellent, small shop built product that is IMHO second to none. And I am relatively certain that he isn't farming his production out to some sampan factory in China.

Yes I know he charges more than $75.00 for his guards, but they at least to me, appear to be far more complex than an impeller for a dust collector...

A piece of rotating equipment, especially a bladed, vaned impeller, is far more complex than it may appear, that's why.  We're talking about fairly sophisticated design, tooling, parts manufacturing, assembling, balancing, and testing processes.

[WayTooLate]

To add on to Bill's comments... 

Having spend much of my manufacturing career in sheet metal fabrication, I learned a few simple lessons (in some very hard ways). 

As long as you only have to fabricate parts in one plane at a time, there may be many steps, but each one is relatively simple and economical.  Example: Pipe bending - It is not much different or costly to make a 30/45/60 or 90 degree bend.  Making a series of bends is just a series of successive, repetitive steps. 

Making changes in two planes gets to be more complicated, but is still definable steps.  Example:  Folding a box and lid (like a shoebox) - The box is taller and the lid is larger( to cover the box), but each has the same number of steps.  If it is 6" or 16" the work is still pretty much the same. 

However, when you need to make changes in three dimensions simultaneously, it has to be physically mocked up to determine production tolerances  - or in today's world, it is modeled by computer.  To actually fabricate parts with three dimensional changes is orders of magnitude more difficult both in the costs of design and development and in the equipment required to produce it.   

Shark Guards are a prime example of taking a sophisticated application and reduce it to simple, profitable (I hope) production.  I am sure that there was a lot of head-scratching and hair-pulling to come to his actual production model. 

As far as your steering wheel goes, you have to determine the price the market will bear...  At $400, it probably won't sell at PEP Boys, but marketed through car-clubs, it may go  for $500.  How much effort will you go through to earn $4-500?  If you can't reduce the effort and investment to your satisfaction - you found out - it isn't worthwhile... 

Fortunately, most of us are doing it for the personal satisfaction and admiration of those who matter to us.  If it was supposed to be financially profitable, it probably wouldn't be as fun...

Enjoy!
Jim

[DarthVader]

does anyone know of anyone who has actually changed the impeller on their hf unit? i cant find that original thread i spoke of in my first post unfortunately. the impeller is in stock at grizzly and i am ready to do it, but i just want to double check the shaft diameter to make sure it fits before i do it.  i cant take my dc apart right now as im using it nonstop lately, which is why now is the right time for me to upgrade. i just ordered the wynn paper filter and a 6" bellmouth for my separator so i should be more efficient already but the impeller would be killer.

[polarys425]

I can't speak for the Grizzly impeller, but i know for a fact that the 12" Rikon impeller fits my HF DC perfectly. The vanes of the impeller curved in the opposite direction, but i have increased airflow, and decreased noise. The Rikon impeller is about $60 + $20 shipping.

[WayTooLate]

Impeller designs are quite unique.  Sometimes the vanes appear to go 'backwards' and other times 'forward'. 

They share one common feature though... 
If you reverse them, they still blow air in the same direction.   
This is particularly important with 3phase motors since the phasing controls the direction of rotation. 

If you think that the impeller is designed to go the 'other' way, open the motor connections.  There is almost always a schematic to show you what wires to change to reverse direction.  Take measurements, first, then reverse and compare.  The impeller's 'correct' direction will be 20-30% more efficient than 'backwards'. 

Hope this helps!
Jim

[polarys425]

So, you'd buy the Rikon machine for $399 instead? The two machines are nearly identical, other than the 12" impeller vs. the 10" or so on the HF. The HF machine can be had for $150 or so. Add $80 for the 12" impeller, and $230 or so is still way cheaper for the same equipment. Top hat separators are cheap to make, so on a small budget, one can have a machine that rivals much more expensive equipment.

[polarys425]

Which model is that?

[polarys425]

That's what i thought it might be. So, somehow a $400 DC that needs almost as many mods as the HF is somehow better because it costs more? I don't get it.  The only components that one could maybe argue is better is the motor & impeller. In todays make it cheaper manufacturing that may or may not be the case. Plenty of these HF DC motors have lived long lives.  Otherwise you have a DC that still needs a separator, a better filter, a larger intake (to collect fines), etc. You've already spent more just for your DC than i paid for my DC, the impeller, my separator (free-cycled material), and my 6" S&D piping.

The HF DC is a long time recognized diamond in the rough. Not everything HF sells is junk. Would i buy most of the stuff they sell? No. But as with anything else, prudent shopping at HF can save some serious coin on items that the chinese copy and sell at ridiculously low prices under generic names. (bar clamps, diamond sharpeners, drill chucks, some of the HVLP guns rival those costing much more, air hose (goodyear brand), air nozzles, air fittings, hose reels, and quite a bit more.)

It's not my intention to pick a battle or anything, i just don't see anything about the Delta unit that justifies $400, and i think you've written off the HF unit based solely on its price. Price can be an indicator of quality, however, there are products that are severely overpriced. DC's are just that, overpriced. So, one being sold at a reasonable price doesn't necessarily make it junk. Truth be known, the HF and Delta units probably have very similar costs of manufacturing.