Cleaning a Wynn filter while attached to a DC

[Mark Vierno]

Hi everyone,

I have built and installed the Thien separator on my Grizzly G1029, 2hp dust collector. I have a Wynn cartridge filter on top and a plastic bag on the bottom. I made the conversion to eliminate the aftermarket felt bags that I was previously using because it was a dusty, messy hassle to empty them out.

For a little background, I run a small commercial cabinet shop. Most of the machinery that I use generates ?fine? sawdust. The major machines are a panel saw, cabinet saw, edgebander, linebore, hinge machines, small shaper, etc. I process a lot of engineered panels such as melamine, veneered mdf, mdf and plywood. I use very little solid wood as I outsource most of the parts that require this. 

I built the filter/separator combo like Phil described here (see attached pictures).

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=164.0

Overall, I?m happy with the results that I am getting considering the materials that I use. I do however get a fair amount of ?fines? in the Wynn filter. I fully expected that this was going to happen so now I would like some advice on the best and most efficient to clean the filter out. Preferably without removing the filter from the dust collector.

The pile of dust on the concete floor and the rug is what came out of the filter before I vacuumed it. It was a pretty good amount.

My first thought is to eliminate the donut with the 6? reducing collar so I can just blow the filter out with compressed air. Since I?m already getting a lot of dust in the filter, I don?t see that this will be a problem. The dust will fall onto the funnel and onto the top of the separator where hopefully it will be separated the next time that the collector comes on. 

My second thought came when I saw this Penn State set up which features a re-circulating cleanout system.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP2PCX.html

It seems to me that it would be easy to cut a hole in the top of the filter and install a blast gate so all I would have to do would be to connect the collection hose, turn the collector on and blast the filter with compressed air while it?s running, sending the dust back through the separator again.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this or have any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Mark Vierno

[phil (admin)]

Can't tell from the pics, but do you use a separator, or is the only baffle the one in the ring of your DC?

I think if you were make a separator using the current ring sitting on top of a drum (like a 30 or 55-gallon), then pull through the separator by mounting the blower to the wall above, and then push into the filter and hang a bag from the bottom of the filter.  Now whenever you want to clean the filter, just use an air compressor (lower PSI) to blow through the filter, and then empty the bag on the bottom of the filter.

Or exhaust the fines outside if your climate allows.

[Mark Vierno]

Chuck,

I think that I will speak for many home and pro shops with my reasons.

Real Estate
It?s all about space and lack of it. My commercial shop is located in one of the highest cost rent areas of the US, so I try to maximize the square footage and minimize the cost by using machines with small footprints.

Mobility
Mobility is another consideration in a small shop. Most of the machines in my shop, including the dust collector, are on wheels so they can be moved as necessary, depending on the job. By using a separate baffled barrel and DC you are forced into a permanent location or a larger more cumbersome setup that I suppose with a little planning could be mobile.

Convenience
Also, for me, having the dust collected in a plastic bag makes disposing of it very convenient. This is the main reason that I upgraded my DC. If I had to empty out a barrel or drum I might as well go back to the felt bags that I was previously using.

So having a compact, self contained unit makes a lot of sense. Even with all the fine dust in the filter the baffled DC still had great suction.

As for the air flow, I have no idea about that, but I can say that my set up looks the same as many of the separate barrel units that I?ve seen here.

Mark Vierno

[Mark Vierno]

Phil,

I've attached a few more pictures.

The baffle is located in the DC. I don?t have a separator before the DC, although I will consider that if I cannot figure out a quick and easy cleaning solution for the Wynn filter.

Do you see any problems with my application of your design?

Do you agree with me that it is probably the very fine MDF dust that is making it through the baffle?

Has anyone successfully used plastic bags inside of a drum equipped with a Thien Baffle?

Thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

Mark Vierno

[phil (admin)]

Right, that baffle's bottom is covered with the flour of MDF or some other type of sheet good.  It is difficult to separate.

Do you roll your DC around, or do you have a DC network w/ a gate at each machine?

[Mark Vierno]

Phil,

The DC gets moved about 5 feet in order for a 4? x 20? hose to reach all the machines. On some of the particularly restrictive machines, I leave the second DC blast gate open to allow plenty of air to move through to aid in separation. I typically collect from one machine at a time, but sometimes I will have two hooked up.

Chuck,

Would the pulling vs the pushing make a difference with the fine flour?

Mark Vierno

[bruegf]

Mark,

I wonder if you've lost too much air flow due to the excessive length of flex hose.   From what I remember reading as I was researching how to set up my DC, a foot of flex hose is the equivalent of 9' of smooth wall pipe and for a small DC total length of run should be limited to about 30'.

I put one of Phil's baffles in a 30 gal galvanized garbage can and it separates fine dust very, very well.   After several days of use I have about 6" of dust in the can and less than a cup in the plastic DC bag.   The separator is removing 99+% of the dust, including the fines.

Fred

[Mark Vierno]

This is a great discussion and I hope that more useful information comes out. If I?m entering an area that has been discussed extensively somewhere else please point me in that direction.

Wynn sells 4 mil plastic bags, 10 for $13.00 plus shipping. So let?s say that they are approximately $2.00 per bag with shipping. It used to take me about 20 minutes to disconnect, empty and replace my felt bag. I double bagged it because standard plastic bags were too flimsy and tore easily. Now it takes me about 5 minutes and I?m not making a big mess in the process. If you remember, I?m doing this for a living so to me this is a very small price to pay for the convenience and speed. It is also a business expense. I will never (glup, I hope) go back to empting felt bags or bins into plastic bags if I can help it.

I realize that people are very opinionated about whether stuff goes through the impeller or is separated before it. I could care less about this. My question was only if one way collects the super fine dust better than the other before it goes to the filter. This is all I care about. Less fine dust in the filter, the longer I can go between cleanings. We all know that dust collection filters need to be cleaned occasionally, I?m just looking for the most efficient way to do this.

I think that Fred is saying that his baffle is separating 99+% of the dust that is entering the collection system. It was pretty clear to me.

Mark Vierno

[Mark Vierno]

Fred,

The number one producer of the super fine dust is the vertical panel saw that can be seen in the picture right behind the collector. This has its own flex hose to allow the saw to move up and down for cross cuts and to also allow the carriage (what the saw runs up and down on) to move from side to side for rip cuts. It gets attached directly to the dust collector and there is little I can do about the diameter and length of the hose.

Mark Vierno

[bruegf]

Mark,

Because of limited space and the need to be able to move equipment around I use 10' of flex hose from my main 5" run to the machine's dust port.   I'm still finishing up the addition of DC to my shop, but I'm planning on upgrading the 4" hose I'm using now to 5" hose for the jointer and table saw.  Not sure if it will help or not, but since there's a 50% difference in cross sectional area between 4" and 5" it seems like it would minimize flow losses.

I was only wondering if the use of 20' might be causing too much loss....   Might be worth positioning the DC so that you can use a shorter hose once and see if things improve at all.

Fred

[dbhost]

I guess it depends on which Wynn filter you got... I run the spun bond, and keeping it clean is simply a matter of tapping down the sides of the filter all the way around immediately following shutting the DC down... This helps keep it clean...

[Mark Vierno]

Chuck,

I agree with you to a point on the cyclone, however the size of my shop doesn?t really allow for an efficient layout of the duct work.

I also change the layout of my shop from time to time as I add/remove, upgrade and relocate machinery to get the best possible layout. Having a permanent DC system would preclude this from happening.

I have to tell you that a small shop cyclone is still going to have a problem with the ?flour?. I don?t care what anyone tells you. That?s why the cyclones have a clean out on the bottom of the filter. If you don?t believe me go to someone?s shop who cuts a lot of sheet stock (particle board, MDF, etc) and see for yourself. I have a cabinetmaker friend who has an Oneida 3hp cyclone who has to clean out the filter. In fact, since he has owned his cyclone, which I believe is less than 5 years, he has even had to replace his filter and he cuts less sheet stock than I do.

In the future this may become a reality, but I really do like the idea of a few small, self contained DC units serving several work cells. In a small shop, it just seems way more flexible, efficient and economical.

Mark Vierno

[Mark Vierno]

What happened to Chucks last post? I was working on a reply, got distracted and now it's gone.

Mark

[Mark Vierno]

Dbhost,

I too am using the spun bond filter and the dust does fall off of it very easily. The problem is that it does not make it back into the collection bag because of the way I have the donut with the reducing collar.

I believe that the fine ?flour? in the filter is going to be a given because of the material that I process on a regular basis. This is regardless of whether it is a push or pull system or how efficient my duct work is. While these system designs may reduce the amount of ?flour? going to the filter, some will still make it through.

Does everyone agree with this?

What I am looking for is a quick and easy way to get the filter cleaned and hopefully the fines into the bag. I would rather not have to remove the filter to knock the dust off or break out the shop vac if I can help it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the two possible solutions that I raised in my first post?

Mark Vierno

[Mark Vierno]

Chuck,

I used to have 0.5 micron (at least it was advertised as such) felt upper and lower bags on this collector. Eventually the fine dust worked its way through and they needed to be cleaned in a washing machine.  I was at this point for the second time when I made the conversion to the Thien Baffle.

I?m fortunate to have another identical collector as this one, so I can run some experiments with the other collector ring and not have to change any of the modifications that I have done to this one.

I will be looking for the best combination of collection, filtration and ease of cleaning the fine dust out of the canister filter. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out. Now all I need is some free time to do this  :-[.

Mark