new setup requesting suggestions

[jgt1942]

OK I've finally had it with my portable thien setup and have decided to route pipes in the attic area of my workshop. The roof over my garage/workshop is near flat and I have just over 3' of space between the garage ceiling and the actual roof. I plan to put the new unit in the right-front corner of the garage (where the red tool box is in the garage image). Initially I can just put the portable unit in this space and connect it to the pipes I plan to run in the attic area.

I'm attempting to solve two issues.

• I'm tired of moving the portable unit and connecting it to the tool I'm using
• I'm tired of the noise the DC motor makes

I plan to complete this project in several phases but I'd like to get as much of the planning in place before I start any work.

Phase One
Run Pipe in the attic area which presents the first question, e.g. should I run 4" or 6" pipe. The input to the Grizzly is very close to 6" (I had to modify a plastic pipe for the current fitting). I plan to use PVC. If I use 6" pipe my current thought is to make the drops from the attic pipe the same size and then reduce down to 4" for the blast gate and the run to the tool. Currently all of my tools have 4" ports for dust collection. The garage is about 28' x25'. I was thinking of running one continuous loop in the attic and if possible all bends would be made using 2-45 degree pipes rather than one 90 degree.

Phase Two
Build a new Thien baffle, if I use 6" pipe in the attic then a new unit will be required for the 6" input

Phase Three
Convert the Grizzly to utilize the new baffle

Phase Four
Enclose the system, Walls and doors to reduce the noise for the rest of the shop.

Please feel free to comment about any phase

[retired2]

There was an article in American Woodworker on building a central dust collection system that has been linked in many posts on this forum.  Unfortunately, all you can view now is a very abbreviated preview.  If you want to read it all you need to pay for it.  The gist of the article is that 5" pipe is all that is needed for most 1-1/2 HP and 2 HP DC systems.  It provides the air velocity needed for conveying woodworking waste, while keeping line losses low.  Obviously 6" lines would have lower losses, but it is not by very much.  Above 5" line losses become a case of rapidly diminishing returns.

5" snap lock pipe is readily available in most HVAC supply houses in two different gauges, and the cost is not much higher than what you would pay at the big box stores.  I have seen it there also, but only in the lighter gage.  The real cost is in fittings.

If you can afford it, connect all your pipes and fittings with X-treme tape.  It is amazing stuff.  In order to adhere to itself you must stretch it out as you wrap it, so it goes much farther than the nominal length on the package.  The real benefit is the speed with which it can be removed.  Cut across it with a utility knife and it pops open like a rubber band.  (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035YCK6K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Sooner or later you will want to make a change to your layout or add a tool or heaven forbid remove a blockage, and when that time comes you want a joint that can be easily opened but does not leak air.  I assembled my joints with the silver duct tape that has the black mastic on one side.  It is like bubble gum.  Once you wrap a joint, you can cut it open again, but cleaning up the mess to reuse or reseal the pipe is a real pia.  I have tried every solvent I could find and nothing works. 

So, why are you putting the pipe in your attic?  That isn't going to make a big difference in noise.  All the noise comes from DC which you plan to enclose.  I hope you are not just planning to put it in a closet with a door and a big hole for the air to escape because you won't control noise that way.  By putting your mains in the attic you are going to have to lift your waste stream higher to get into the overhead line, which helps make the case for 5" rather than 6" pipe.  I would run a main diagonally across you ceiling or attic with laterals that branch off to each tool.  However, you do it, the layout should be the one that requires the shortest amount of pipe and the fewest fittings, especially for the tool farthest from the DC.

I used all 5" blast gates and reduced between the gate and the tool.  I did that because blast gates are a little smaller i.d. than your nominal pipe size and I just wanted to keep the line losses down.

That's about all I can think of just now.  Oh, with your plan you will also need to use a remote on your DC.  I have a Long Ranger on mine with micro switches on each blast gate.  It works great, but frankly I would not recommend it.  I am on my third Long Ranger in three years.  They simply burn up from the starting currents on 1-1/2 HP motors.  In the nice looking box it all Asian solid state junk.  Next time around I am going to investigate building my own with contactors that won't crap out. 

[jgt1942]

There was an article in American Woodworker on building a central dust collection system that has been linked in many posts on this forum.  Unfortunately, all you can view now is a very abbreviated preview.  If you want to read it all you need to pay for it.  The gist of the article is that 5" pipe is all that is needed for most 1-1/2 HP and 2 HP DC systems.  It provides the air velocity needed for conveying woodworking waste, while keeping line losses low.  Obviously 6" lines would have lower losses, but it is not by very much.  Above 5" line losses become a case of rapidly diminishing returns

I think I found the link but currently American Woodworker is migration to PopularWoodworking.com and it appears that they are doing it in real-time which is resulting in a LOT of broken links. I have a PDF of most of the American Woodworker mags but cannot find the article in the 2010 issues. I'll try later.

BTW my Grizzly is a 2 HP unit.

Tks for the suggestion of the 5" pipe I'll compare the cost to the 6" PVC.

The X-treme tape is a really great idea, as you imply it is expensive but I think it would be well worth the expense especially for the total run. Lots of possible leaks.

So, why are you putting the pipe in your attic?  That isn't going to make a big difference in noise.  All the noise comes from DC which you plan to enclose.

The pipe in the attic is just because it is much easier to run the pipe in the attic rather than the ceiling of my garage. I agree that the noise is from the DC and phase four will enclose the DC. I enclosed my air compressor last year and that reduced the noise level from 79 db to 63 db. Every 10 db drop cuts the noise by 1/2. I used an app on my phone to measure the noise level. I know that it is not measuring the high end correctly but at least it does give me a good indication of the level. My neighbor has some professional noise measuring equipment and I'll touch base with him for an accurate measurement.

Excellent idea on the RC, I agree this is a MUST! If you have a set of plans please let me know. I don't like the idea of it crapping out. It takes me forever to complete a project and I don't need one that will cycle back on me for more attention. :)

[jgt1942]

I failed to mention that the insulation in my attic is a spray foam and it was applied to the underside roof. Thus when I route the pipe in this area I'm not being hindered by glass insulation.

[Mainebarn]

I hope you are not just planning to put it in a closet with a door and a big hole for the air to escape because you won't control noise that way. 

What is the best way to control the noise?  How do you isolate the DC for noise?  Thanks.

[retired2]

I hope you are not just planning to put it in a closet with a door and a big hole for the air to escape because you won't control noise that way. 

What is the best way to control the noise?  How do you isolate the DC for noise?  Thanks.

Depends how far you want to go.  You can find info on the web, but tips include solid core door rather than hollow core, insulation in the walls, acoustical drywall, or two layers of 1/2" drywall, angled walls and ceiling, and if the air is vented back into the romm a set of baffles to minimize the sound that escapes with the air.

[JohnH]

I'll offer a few comments.  I'd be concerned about crushing the snap lock duct.  Spiral is available at most HVAC shops, maybe that's what Retired2 meant.

I agree not much difference in the pipe diameter but the HVAC metal elbows can be made into log sweep elbows (with two of the sectional fittings) that have much lower losses than the PVC elbows.

In any event PVC through drywall in a garage would typically mean you need a fire stop.  No fire stop is needed with metal pipe.  PVC should also get an external ground wire to drain the static.

For noise I'd use a few large 2 x 4 cardboard panels to block the areas around the DC to figure out where the noise is coming from.  This can be faster than putting the DC in a room.  After you figure out the sound you can make panels from hardboard and fiberglass insulation.   I had a project where we made hanging and movable fiberglass panels covered with fabric to block the fan noise.

As long as you're upgrading you might consider adding a straightener on the inlet of the fan and cartridge final filters.

John H

[retired2]

I'll offer a few comments.  I'd be concerned about crushing the snap lock duct.  Spiral is available at most HVAC shops, maybe that's what Retired2 meant.

I agree not much difference in the pipe diameter but the HVAC metal elbows can be made into log sweep elbows (with two of the sectional fittings) that have much lower losses than the PVC elbows.

In any event PVC through drywall in a garage would typically mean you need a fire stop.  No fire stop is needed with metal pipe.  PVC should also get an external ground wire to drain the static.

For noise I'd use a few large 2 x 4 cardboard panels to block the areas around the DC to figure out where the noise is coming from.  This can be faster than putting the DC in a room.  After you figure out the sound you can make panels from hardboard and fiberglass insulation.   I had a project where we made hanging and movable fiberglass panels covered with fabric to block the fan noise.

As long as you're upgrading you might consider adding a straightener on the inlet of the fan and cartridge final filters.

John H

No, I didn't mean spiral wound pipe, it is way too expensive.   Fittings are about three times the cost segmented pipe.

My system is assembled from 26 gage snap lock pipe and fittings, and I guarantee you there isn't a 1-1/2 HP or 2 HP dust collector made that can collapse 26 gage steel pipe 6" and smaller in diameter.  In hindsight I should have saved a little more money by using 28 gage - it is plenty stiff and both were available from my supply house.

The vast majority of separators described in this forum sit on plastic garbage cans, fiber board drums, or even steel garbage cans.  Which do you think will collapse first, a 5" or 6" 26 gage steel pipe, or a 20" plastic drum?  Did you ever feel how heavy and stiff 26 gage pipe is?  You'd need to drive a car over it to flatten it!

[jgt1942]

What is the best way to control the noise?  How do you isolate the DC for noise?  Thanks.

When I enclosed my air compressor in a corner of my garage  (I'll do the same for my DC) I used 6" 2x6 for the studs and a solid wood door. Still pending is to install a vent, for now I just leave the door cracked a bit (this drops the noise level about 12 db) but I plan to install an exhaust intake in one corner of the enclosure from the attic (I'll add a baffle in the attic). The intake will be a pipe that goes from the ceiling almost down to the floor. In an opposite corner I will install a very quiet exhaust fan that will run anytime the compressor is running. Thus the air will be sucked down the pipe to the floor and then back up to the ceiling by the exhaust fan. Once this is installed I can then close the door all the way. I added a sweep at the bottom of the door. Between the studs I installed blue-jean insulation that was left over from sound proofing other areas of my house. I used 5/8" sheetrock on the outside of the unit. On the inside of the walls no sheetrock was installed thus allowing the blue-jean insulation to absorb the noise.

[JohnH]

No, I didn't mean spiral wound pipe, it is way too expensive.   Fittings are about three times the cost segmented pipe.

The vast majority of separators described in this forum sit on plastic garbage cans, fiber board drums, or even steel garbage cans.  Which do you think will collapse first, a 5" or 6" 26 gage steel pipe, or a 20" plastic drum?  Did you ever feel how heavy and stiff 26 gage pipe is?  You'd need to drive a car over it to flatten it!

Yes I've used plenty of snap lock duct in (26?) ga, but I'd be nervous without testing a long run.  I'm thinking after I crush the can would I crush the duct?  I'm more conservative with the items I can't see, like above the ceiling.  I'd still use the segmented fittings from HD, Lowes, Menards.  The real question for me would be how much straight spiral costs.  If its the same as PVC then I'm going with spiral.

[retired2]

No, I didn't mean spiral wound pipe, it is way too expensive.   Fittings are about three times the cost segmented pipe.

The vast majority of separators described in this forum sit on plastic garbage cans, fiber board drums, or even steel garbage cans.  Which do you think will collapse first, a 5" or 6" 26 gage steel pipe, or a 20" plastic drum?  Did you ever feel how heavy and stiff 26 gage pipe is?  You'd need to drive a car over it to flatten it!

Yes I've used plenty of snap lock duct in (26?) ga, but I'd be nervous without testing a long run.  I'm thinking after I crush the can would I crush the duct?  I'm more conservative with the items I can't see, like above the ceiling.  I'd still use the segmented fittings from HD, Lowes, Menards.  The real question for me would be how much straight spiral costs.  If its the same as PVC then I'm going with spiral.

I have a spiral wound manufacturer nearby, and three years ago when I built my system, I got prices from him.  He's very reasonable, in fact he is the guy who fabricated all my welded steel dust hoods, and the round to rectangular transition piece for my separator.  At his prices, straight spiral wound pipe, I think 24 gage, was slightly higher than snap lock, but not 3X like the fittings?

So, the difference between spiral wound and snap lock for straight runs is not going to break the bank, but I seem to remember it being about 25% more. I could be wrong. 

Spend the money if you wish, but it would take twice the SP that your DC is capable of to collapse 5" 26 gage snap lock pipe.  That money is much better spent on five segment long radius ells.  I have a 25 ft run in one of my mains and it doesn't even flex.

[retired2]

There was an article in American Woodworker on building a central dust collection system that has been linked in many posts on this forum.  Unfortunately, all you can view now is a very abbreviated preview.  If you want to read it all you need to pay for it.  The gist of the article is that 5" pipe is all that is needed for most 1-1/2 HP and 2 HP DC systems.  It provides the air velocity needed for conveying woodworking waste, while keeping line losses low.  Obviously 6" lines would have lower losses, but it is not by very much.  Above 5" line losses become a case of rapidly diminishing returns

I think I found the link but currently American Woodworker is migration to PopularWoodworking.com and it appears that they are doing it in real-time which is resulting in a LOT of broken links. I have a PDF of most of the American Woodworker mags but cannot find the article in the 2010 issues. I'll try later.

BTW my Grizzly is a 2 HP unit.

Tks for the suggestion of the 5" pipe I'll compare the cost to the 6" PVC.

The X-treme tape is a really great idea, as you imply it is expensive but I think it would be well worth the expense especially for the total run. Lots of possible leaks.

So, why are you putting the pipe in your attic?  That isn't going to make a big difference in noise.  All the noise comes from DC which you plan to enclose.

The pipe in the attic is just because it is much easier to run the pipe in the attic rather than the ceiling of my garage. I agree that the noise is from the DC and phase four will enclose the DC. I enclosed my air compressor last year and that reduced the noise level from 79 db to 63 db. Every 10 db drop cuts the noise by 1/2. I used an app on my phone to measure the noise level. I know that it is not measuring the high end correctly but at least it does give me a good indication of the level. My neighbor has some professional noise measuring equipment and I'll touch base with him for an accurate measurement.

Excellent idea on the RC, I agree this is a MUST! If you have a set of plans please let me know. I don't like the idea of it crapping out. It takes me forever to complete a project and I don't need one that will cycle back on me for more attention. :)

Here is an article you should read before deciding on plumbing size.  It illustrates what happens when you jump up in size.  As I mentioned previously, it takes more CFM's to maintain the minimum velocity needed for conveying wood waste.  As you can see from the units tested here, many DC's are not up to the task.  Also, as you can see from these graphs, manufacturer's stated CFM and SP figures don't tell you much about real performance.  You need a fan curve like the ones in this article to know what your unit is capable of at various SP and CFM's.  There is a reason why manufacturer's don't publish or provide these fan curves with their units - it would allow you to make meaningful comparisons!   

http://www.deltaportercable.com/uploads/PCD/Documents/News/182DustCollectors.pdf

[TX_Lenador]

I am using a Grizzly 2HP DC and decided on 5" duct. I did quite a bit of research and based on retired2's experience and articles mentioned above (I was able to read the AW article before the link stopped working) and decided 5" was the way to go. Fortunately, I have a supplier within a reasonable drive of where I live and was able to get the duct work at a reasonable price. I did use spiral wound pipe which was a lit bit more expensive than the snap lock but the fittings were very cheap from this supplier (90 elbow was $10). As retired2 mentions above, most DCs tested in the article will not generate adequate airflow on 6" pipe and 4" could be too restrictive.

I also wired up a automatic start so that turning on the TS or Router will auto start the DC. It also has an override switch for use with the other tools in the shop. I only have to remember to open blast gates. I plan on expanding the auto start to other tools and look to use pneumatics to automatically open/close the blast gates. The link below is the wiring diagram and parts list for the auto start switch. If you are not comfortable working with electricity and wiring in panels then this may not be for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2qSB--NoZIIC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=dust+collector+relay&source=web&ots=1z7x8dB_JC&sig=3Biq-UUTn7x_uOPJXjYJph0DZgc#v=onepage&q&f=false

My DC setup can be seen at this posting.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.msg5701#msg5701

[retired2]

I am using a Grizzly 2HP DC and decided on 5" duct. I did quite a bit of research and based on retired2's experience and articles mentioned above (I was able to read the AW article before the link stopped working) and decided 5" was the way to go. Fortunately, I have a supplier within a reasonable drive of where I live and was able to get the duct work at a reasonable price. I did use spiral wound pipe which was a lit bit more expensive than the snap lock but the fittings were very cheap from this supplier (90 elbow was $10). As retired2 mentions above, most DCs tested in the article will not generate adequate airflow on 6" pipe and 4" could be too restrictive.

I also wired up a automatic start so that turning on the TS or Router will auto start the DC. It also has an override switch for use with the other tools in the shop. I only have to remember to open blast gates. I plan on expanding the auto start to other tools and look to use pneumatics to automatically open/close the blast gates. The link below is the wiring diagram and parts list for the auto start switch. If you are not comfortable working with electricity and wiring in panels then this may not be for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2qSB--NoZIIC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=dust+collector+relay&source=web&ots=1z7x8dB_JC&sig=3Biq-UUTn7x_uOPJXjYJph0DZgc#v=onepage&q&f=false

My DC setup can be seen at this posting.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.msg5701#msg5701

First, let me congratulate you on a really first class set up.  I'm not sure I saw all your photos previously.  I wish I had your drum lift, my cam operated lift is tempermental.  One day I'll have to redo it.

You are getting some real fire sale prices on those spiral wound fittings.  I can't buy segmented fittings for that price.

Pneumatically operated blast gates sounds like a time consuming, expensive proposition.  Have you thought about a "Long Ranger" setup.  That is what I use and the 24v micro switches on the blast gates work beautifully.  Unfortunately the solid state relay that turns on the DC just doesn't hold up to the starting current of my 1-1/2 Delta DC.  I need a parts list and diagram to build a replacement made out of industrial grade components, not Chinese junk from Radio Shack.

[jgt1942]

TX_Lenador - thanks for the input and links. I just ordered the book you referenced (Small Woodworking Shops 9781561586868) as well as Woodshop Dust Control : A Complete Guide... 9781561584994 from ecampus.com which was the best price I found.

I also downloaded your DC_Pics.PDF - great setup. I like your bucket lift much better than what I currently have and will use it in my redesign.