Opinions on THIS separator container.

[NLAlston]

I have been doing a fair amount of reading, here, on the various choices for containers to be used in a 'separator' construction.  The information has been quite good, I must say, but I would like to gain opinions on a particular container that ran across, yesterday.

I was at Home Depot, looking for something suitable in a garbage can design, but couldn't seem to find anything as sturdy as I thought it should be.  Then, I happened to venture into the plumbing department, checking out PVC connections, when I spotted a 20gal Sump Pump Basin.  This thing was built like a tank.  It is made of very thick plastic, and I put it on its side - with full effort to depress it, but there was NO GIVE at all. 

The top of it had a recessed area for an optionally purchased lid.  That recess would make it pretty easy to construct one's own plywood/MDF lid, and just as easily to incorporate some type of locking device for same. 

This basin is 18"x22", and sells for $23.68.  I know that it is just a 20gal capacity (which would be less than that with the Thien Separator built for it), but many are using just a 5gal bucket for their systems.  Besides, I would only be drawing from one machine at a time.

Has anyone else used this basin as their 'separator' container?

Nathan

[R.True]

While I've not used this container I think it would be perfect.

Also making a top hat for this would be perfect too, instead of just the lid and baffle...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-18-in-x-22-in-Sump-Pump-Basin-SF20/204733081

[alan m]

that looks idea.
go with a top hat design
put some weather stripping on that flange and put the top hat on that.

[tvman44]

It would be good to use with a shop vac, IMHO the diameter is too small to use 4" lines with it.

[NLAlston]

Thanks for the time taken to render responses.

@ Alen M,

As per your mention of the Top Hat design, I will delve a bit deeper into that design style.

[NLAlston]

It would be good to use with a shop vac, IMHO the diameter is too small to use 4" lines with it.

Indeed.  My aim is to utilize This[/i] container in a work up For my ShopVac.  I plan on making another, larger one (which would be of appropriate size for my DC) a bit later on.

[alan m]

I don't think that is too small for a 4". that's 18"
with the correct transition inlet you would end up with an inlet of about 2" -2.5". that leaves around 16" in the middle.
that should be plenty for it to work correctly.
im running 8" pipe with a 4" transition on a 22" diameter double height  with no problems.

this will work great with a shop vac

[NLAlston]

I don't think that is too small for a 4". that's 18"
with the correct transition inlet you would end up with an inlet of about 2" -2.5". that leaves around 16" in the middle.
that should be plenty for it to work correctly.
im running 8" pipe with a 4" transition on a 22" diameter double height  with no problems.

this will work great with a shop vac

Thanks, Alan.  Your input has provided quite favorable info.

Being a total newbie, to this type of thing, I am a bit concerned over the aspect of tolerances.  I have watched quite a number of YouTube videos, on the construction of the Thien Top Hat, and they all show the units being constructed.  But none of them provided information as to just WHERE the ports should be placed.  I know that one plan wouldn't service everyone who endeavors to build one, because container sizes, and diameters will vary.  But, regardless of whatever the diameter, isn't it critical that the ports be placed at given points to the edge of the container, and from each other? 

I have read that the top (outlet?) hose port should extend no deeper than 1/2 the diameter of the connector, below the top of the separator.  But, then I have seen where that same piece extended a fair bit deeper than that. 

Also, I had read where the side port should be just before the drop zone opening, but had seen some with the mouth of said port a little behind that opening. 

I am going to go and pick up my Sump Pump Basin just as soon as I finish writing this and, hopefully, will be able to find something out, shortly. 

[BernardNaish]

If you look at this build it covers most of what you need to know to make a good tophat :

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.msg3034;topicseen#msg3034

Ask if anything not clear and let us know how you get on with your build.

[alan m]

I don't think that is too small for a 4". that's 18"
with the correct transition inlet you would end up with an inlet of about 2" -2.5". that leaves around 16" in the middle.
that should be plenty for it to work correctly.
im running 8" pipe with a 4" transition on a 22" diameter double height  with no problems.

this will work great with a shop vac

Thanks, Alan.  Your input has provided quite favorable info.

Being a total newbie, to this type of thing, I am a bit concerned over the aspect of tolerances.  I have watched quite a number of YouTube videos, on the construction of the Thien Top Hat, and they all show the units being constructed.  But none of them provided information as to just WHERE the ports should be placed.  I know that one plan wouldn't service everyone who endeavors to build one, because container sizes, and diameters will vary.  But, regardless of whatever the diameter, isn't it critical that the ports be placed at given points to the edge of the container, and from each other? 

I have read that the top (outlet?) hose port should extend no deeper than 1/2 the diameter of the connector, below the top of the separator.  But, then I have seen where that same piece extended a fair bit deeper than that. 

Also, I had read where the side port should be just before the drop zone opening, but had seen some with the mouth of said port a little behind that opening. 

I am going to go and pick up my Sump Pump Basin just as soon as I finish writing this and, hopefully, will be able to find something out, shortly. 

you want the outlet to be 1/2 the inlet height(diameter if round or height if transitioned) up from the baffle. on a single height
separator it will be the same but as the height increase the out let should stay at the same distance from the baffle


all the incoming dust should enter through the inlet and onto the solid part of the baffle. you want to have as much of the solid part after the inlet as you can with out having a gap between it and the inlet
this solid part stops the incoming air going into the container and recirculating the dust . if it is recirculating it can get sucked back up the outlet

[NLAlston]

If you look at this build it covers most of what you need to know to make a good tophat :

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.msg3034;topicseen#msg3034

Ask if anything not clear and let us know how you get on with your build.

Thanks, Bernard.

Gonna check the link out after responding, here.  Will SURELY get back with ow I am doing/ or have done  :).

[NLAlston]

If you look at this build it covers most of what you need to know to make a good tophat :

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.msg3034;topicseen#msg3034

Bernard, I DID check that link out, and was left highly impressed.  His, has to be one of the nicest ones that I've seen constructed - if not the nicest. 

However, methinks that I am going to build mine on the instructional which was gathered here (http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/forget-dust-deputy-27235/).  This one is less elaborate, but will able me to work with material that I already have on hand (a bit constrained, at present, owing to fixed income limitations).

One day, though, when such matters get better for us (as I KNOW that they will) I will refer back to your provided link, for my next build.  I REALLY DID like that one. 

[NLAlston]

Well, I just (yesterday) finished my little separator, which was very closely based on the design in my previous post.  I forewent that 20gal Sump Pump Basin, for my first separator, and settled on a 5gal plastic pail.  One thing that I kinda preferred about the latter pail (though smaller) is the fact that activity could be seen through it, at least a little bit.  At the very least, I could see when the sawdust is nearing the top.  I didn't post pics because there is really nothing spectacula about it.  When you see the one that I (earlier) linked to, you see mine - except that, right now, black paint is drying on it.

But I had just wanted to say that I got it done, and plan on doing a larger one in the very near future.

[c_pansini]

Does anyone have any input on the diameter of the bell outlet in relation to the inner edge of the drop chute. (the size of the bell compared to the diameter of the chamber. By the sounds of the past discussions a bell outlet is one of the best ways to go. I am still mullin over the size of my tophat design so was also wondering what real effects the thickness of the baffle plate has on the collector? As usual all input is appreciated. I also apologize for my other long winded post as I wrote that before I dove into the inner depths of these discussions.

Cory

[retired2]

Does anyone have any input on the diameter of the bell outlet in relation to the inner edge of the drop chute. (the size of the bell compared to the diameter of the chamber. By the sounds of the past discussions a bell outlet is one of the best ways to go. I am still mullin over the size of my tophat design so was also wondering what real effects the thickness of the baffle plate has on the collector? As usual all input is appreciated. I also apologize for my other long winded post as I wrote that before I dove into the inner depths of these discussions.

Cory

There have been some reports of increased waste by-pass when using a bell mouth fitting on the outlet pipe.  I believe this is quite possible, especially since commercial bell mouths have pretty large flanges.  These reports have not been accompanied by much, if any, data so I don't know if it is a problem inherent with the use of a bell mouth, or simply a chamber diameter that is not large enough to account for the wide flange.  I strongly believe it is the latter.

If you look at a diagram of how air enters a straight pipe vs. a bell mouth, you will see that some air is pulled from the sides with both.  That suggests to me that both will produce some by-pass if placed too close to the waste-laden stream of circulating air in the separator chamber.  I have a feeling that the reports of increased by-pass are simply the result of a separation chamber whose diameter is smaller than it should be for the bell mouth.  I say this because nearly all of us, myself included, size our separator chamber to suit the diameter of the waste drum we plan to use.  If that is the case, certainly a straight pipe will be further from the chamber wall than a bell mouth for any given size separator.

So, there are two solutions.  First build a larger separator, both in diameter and height.  The 2x high separators are reported to have less by-pass.  The other option is to use a modified bell mouth with a smaller diameter flange.  It might be less efficient at moving air, but there are charts showing the efficiency of various inlet shapes.  What those charts show, is that almost any shape is significantly better than a straight pipe, so my belief is a bell mouth with a smaller flange might capture much of the air handling efficiency while reducing by-pass in an undersized separator chamber.

With regards to the baffle thickness, just accept that Phil and others have done enough testing to show that thinner is better.  I suspect that carried to extremes you could create problems.  For example, if you were to use a piece of sheet metal for the baffle, you might introduce clogs at the end of the slot because such a sharp edge is more inclined to snag shavings than a well rounded piece of 1/4" hardboard.  I just recently had my first plugs with my separator, but I was planing very wet cypress and that produced very long shavings.  All the plugs started at the same place, the end of the drop slot.