J. Phil Thien's Projects

I'm sure there are plans for a tophat with 6" ports but I cannot find them, The search function in the forum is too limiting for what I have been feeding it.

I plan to use a 5HP motor with a 16" impeller. Thus it will be necessary for me to build a housing for the motor and impeller as well as the tophat.

Several years ago I converted a Grizzly DC from a single-stage to a two-stage using using 4" ports on the tophat. It really worked great. I never got around to installing good filters on the Grizzly but still it was MUCH better than the original Grizziy.

Just my thoughts, but I expect the pull to be better. The question I have for you is what type of waste will the DeWalt DW735X planer create. If you are using the long knives it will produce long strings and often the strings will block the circular cutout. If you have a helix (shelix) head then you should be OK. I would also guess that the DeWalt to have consider less power than an impeller connected to the Thien and pulling the air through.

A couple of years ago I had the Harvey G700 dust collector and my Hammer A31 planner/joiner had the knives at that time and I no longer had my Thien. I spent more time cleaning out the blockage in the G700 than I did running boards through the A31. I was so disappointed in the performance I sold the G700. Since then I have upgraded my A31 with a Shelix head (love it).

I recently got a used ClearVue Cyclone and in the final stages of restoring it. I hope to have it working in the next two weeks.
Also at the same time, I will be building a Thien for my friend's workshop.

Take a look at http://billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/equipment.cfm#FansNFanTypes On Bill's site you will find a LOT of great info.

Quote from: BrianHood on February 27, 2016, 07:10:41 PM
Completed a build which that turns on a DC whenever the machine(s) associated with it draws power, and senses when the DC barrel is full and kills power to the blower. The priorities for this project were reliability, low cost, and an easy build. Requires five components beyond common wiring materials and an enclosure for an all-in cost of ~$105 (lot of ebay). Build time was five hours (I'm kinda slow) not including rounding up the materials.

Uses a 2hp rated mercury filled relay for the blower, in which one conductor is wired to a metal cup of mercury and the other a probe that is dropped into the cup, eliminating noise, heat, and arcing. Extremely robust.

Thanks to this group for suggesting the Hawkeye current sensor and to a thread over at sawmill creek with the proximity sensor part numbers.

What are the part number or the link to the part numbers in the sawmill creek forum?

I have a Thien Top Hat on my modified Grizzly DC and for the last 2 years it has been working great. The other night I turned some green wood (wet) and this generated a LOT of shavings. At the end of the night I decided to clean up so I turned on my DC and started to vacuum up the woodturning shavings.

OK this was not the smartest move on my part and I quickly realized this when I viewed the Top Hat through the Plexiglas. I quickly saw that it was jammed full with the shavings. I turned off the DC, disconnected the input to the Top Hat, cleaned it out.

Aside from manually cleaning up the shavings any suggestions? Possibly I should use a cyclone for the separator?

I'm about to start a redesign of my DC system and hopefully it will included a solution for the woodturning shavings.

AJ, take a look at Bill Pentz's site http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm He has a TON of info and it will get your head spinning but take your time and read through the site. It will answer ALL of your questions.

Trying to give advice as to which DC to purchase is like trying to give advice as to which car you should purchase next. Try to think down the road and what you might need. I have a Grizzly unit that has a 2 1/2 HP motor. I started with this unit because my son gave it to me. If I had the cash I'd buy the Grizzly G0441 ($1600) 3HP or better yet the Clear Vue CVMAX ($2000) 5HP.

About 3 years ago I redesigned the Grizzly and added the Thein Baffle (Top Hat). The first thing I noticed is how much better the unit worked. I placed the Grizzly unit on top of the baffle so it draws the air through the baffle and then through the impeller. The redesign put everything on a 2x4 cart that I could move around the shop. This was OK until I got more tools and now cannot move the darn DC. Thus I will be redesigning the DC into a stationary unit in the corner of my garage. I will run the pipes up through the ceiling into the attic area and then drop down to three areas to connect to the tools in that area. Gates will ensure I only use one tool at a time.

I also do woodturning which generates a LOT of dust and shavings. Until recently I've been working with very dry wood thus the turning generated mostly dust and small shavings similar to what you get with a chainsaw. However recently I turned some green (wet) wood and it generated a LOT of shavings which created a major problem for the Thein Baffle when I sucked up all of the turnings. The shavings plugged up the baffle. Now I'm thinking of building a cyclone separator.

I also have a planer and it generates a LOT of saw dust and will fill my 20 gal brute can VERY quickly. In the redesign I will use a 32 gal brute can, anything larger will be too heavy for me.

I suggest that you also add an air cleaner to the shop. Most of the inexpensive units (less than $500) are a waste of money IMHO. I'm in the process of building one using a whole house blower. I will be using a modified Wynn Nano Filter 9L300NANO. Normally the nano portion of the filter is on the inside of the filter, Wynn will be attaching the nano portion on the outside because I'm pulling the air through the filter rather than pushing the air through the filter. This is identified as the 9L300NANO EXT. This filter is 99.999% efficient at 0.5 micron. To purchase a similar unit I estimate it would cost more than $2500 and it is costing me about $250.

Currently I live in Prescott AZ at 5200 feet where it is dry most of the time. I do need to heat the shop in the winter and I use the shop a lot.

I see you can vent your DC outside, this would be super but remember that air must come from the shop.

I'm in the process of putting wheels on as much as possible (tools, benches, cabinets, etc.) so I can move things around and out of the way when not being used.

Ref humidity in your garage. Yes it will be more humid in the garage. Example, currently outside for me is 64% (for my area this is very wet, normally less than 30%) and inside the house it is 37% and I have my door going outside open. When I lived back East I did not worry about humidity and my project until I put a trim base around the mailbox post. The wood was dry to the touch and I thought I was good to go. The next day I had 1/8" gaps where the wood joined.

Ref noise - most wood tools generate a lot of noise. I have a DeWalt DW735 Thickness Planer and when I crank it up it hits at least 125 db and my wife hears it on the other side of the house. This by far is the loudest tool I have. Obviously when I run it I also have the DC running. I just measured the DC and it is 108 db, I did not realize it was so loud. When I shut the DC off the noise level dropped to 29 in the shop.

Quote from: retired2 on February 27, 2015, 06:37:38 AM

The devil is always in the details!  The statement you are referencing probably included a qualifier such as "90% of all particles above x microns in size."  That is not inconsistent with a statement that also says they only capture a very small percent of the particles below x microns in size!

It is driving me nuts that I cannot find the article I do recall that the author was very interested in the performance and even tested connecting the two devices in series. Hopefully I or somebody can find the website and article.

Quote from: dabullseye on February 27, 2015, 07:28:19 AM
did a quick look at amazon,ebay and some diy sites. most seem to work off mass so planer shavings are more a volume problem compared to table saw or drum sander dust. cant find out a lot of info on circuits.
with my setup i would have to place a sensor under bottom of can and relay on deflection of bottom to trigger sensor otherwise i could preload sensor when i jack up can. that would make sliding heavy can off support difficult. this is why im leaning toward a photo eye. if i keep eye in air stream that should keep it clean but with the one i posted i think i would still need a window so sensor would sense light change or install an led diode infront of sensor so when dust builds up it would block light and trigger sensor.     
anyway i look at i think a window on side of can is the best way   

When I communicated with Robert I mentioned that I planned to install to the underside of the TopHat and he suspected it would work. BTW his unit does use a photo eye and they are included in the $200 price as I understand. I did a quick search for photo-eye and found prices ranging from a low of $41 to a high of $79 thus if Roberts unit includes everything it really is not that expensive. :)

Another low-tech solution (without cutoff) is to cut a hole in the side of the can and cover the hole with Plexiglass.

Just about a year ago I communicated with Robert R. Payne, Owner of McRabbet Woodworks, LLC. He makes a bin sensor which he sells for $200 plus $20 for shipping. As I convert from my portable DC unit to a fixed unit I plan to add his control for the auto shutoff when the bin is full.

I missed your post on the air restriction and I was basing my statement only on observation of my unit which did NOT include   measurements with instruments. Thanks for the correction!
I looked for the gov. site with the measurements on the Tophat and cyclone and so far I have not found it. I found it very interesting at the time and I'm surprised I did not keep a copy of the report. The report was very well done, I do recall that both the TopHat and Cyclone had a dust separation in the high 90 percent range.

Quote from: tvman44 on January 11, 2015, 04:23:37 PM
Interesting question!  :)

Some time ago I read the results of research completed comparing the Thien and Cyclone. I cannot find the post at this time but the Thien and Cyclone separation results was almost the same.  The research was completed by a city gov if I recall correctly.

kerrybp - your design is something like mine, see the following image.
One of my first attempts was to install the Thien ring (e.g. the ring in the bottom of the Thien baffle) in the Grizzly intake. I was NOT satisfied with the results. After picking up a lot of dust I removed the intake hose and there was a LOT of dust on top of the ring.

Thus I highly suggest NOT using the original ring and replace it with a Thien Baffle, use the design by Retired2.

As you can see my original design is portable and I've decided this was NOT a good option and a royal pain moving it around the garage and connecting to the tool being used. Thus I'm in the process of running fixed pipes and putting the DC in a corner of my garage.

Another major change I'm considering is eliminating everything on the left side of my image and just running the exhaust outside. I will be running my pipes to the DC and tools up in my attic just to get the pipes out of the way. From the output of my current blower, currently going to the bags on the left side of the image, I'm planning to just run it directly outside. Before I run it outside I will test the noise level to ensure I don't get my neighbors or the Home Owners Association upset with me. If the noise level is too high then I will do something like what I currently have or a Wynn filter as you are thinking.

The only time I get something in the bags is when the Brute can overflows. This can be resolved by either ensuring it is not full or installing an automatic shutoff. I'm thinking of installing the automatic shutoff. If you are running a lot of wood through a plainer you will be shocked as to how quickly the can fills. 

BTW I use a 20 GAL Brute, originally I planned to use the 32 GAL but this gets heavy for us old folks and if it is full dust it really blows up a cloud when emptying it into something else.

Put a lift under the can to lift it up to make a tight seal (I use door weather stripping) between the can and the Thien Tophat.
REF:

QuoteI know that having it in an enclosure could be bad for overheating the motor

You will be very surprised as to how much air the unit needs. I enclosed my air compressor in an area about 3x3x10 and installed a vent and fan to ensure it did not get too hot after using it quite a bit one day without the vent. The fan comes on when the air compressor comes on. Do the same for your enclosed unit.
REF:

QuoteI'm not opposed to making a separate Thien top-hat, but I thought if the delta ring worked as well as a self-made top-hat, it would be a lot less work - already have the 6" side inlet and 20" diameter cylinder, just need to cut some circles.

In my test the ring did not work near as good as the TopHat. I suggest going with the TopHat. The TopHat does NOT restrict the air flow and the amount of dust separation is VERY good.

TX_Lenador - thanks for the input and links. I just ordered the book you referenced (Small Woodworking Shops 9781561586868) as well as Woodshop Dust Control : A Complete Guide... 9781561584994 from ecampus.com which was the best price I found.

I also downloaded your DC_Pics.PDF - great setup. I like your bucket lift much better than what I currently have and will use it in my redesign.

QuoteWhat is the best way to control the noise?  How do you isolate the DC for noise?  Thanks.

When I enclosed my air compressor in a corner of my garage  (I'll do the same for my DC) I used 6" 2x6 for the studs and a solid wood door. Still pending is to install a vent, for now I just leave the door cracked a bit (this drops the noise level about 12 db) but I plan to install an exhaust intake in one corner of the enclosure from the attic (I'll add a baffle in the attic). The intake will be a pipe that goes from the ceiling almost down to the floor. In an opposite corner I will install a very quiet exhaust fan that will run anytime the compressor is running. Thus the air will be sucked down the pipe to the floor and then back up to the ceiling by the exhaust fan. Once this is installed I can then close the door all the way. I added a sweep at the bottom of the door. Between the studs I installed blue-jean insulation that was left over from sound proofing other areas of my house. I used 5/8" sheetrock on the outside of the unit. On the inside of the walls no sheetrock was installed thus allowing the blue-jean insulation to absorb the noise.

spes - following is an image of my converted Grizzly (2 HP unit) with the Thien Top hat. I like the idea of using plastic for the side thus I can easily see when I have a problem, twice I have overfilled the Brute can. While the unit seems to work without issues as I move to the next phase (see below) I may be on the edge of being too small.

I suggest using a 20 gal Brute, a full 32 gal is heavy for us old folks.

As you can see I have a portable unit but after using it for about a year I'm going to install fixed runs. Moving it around the shop and connecting to a port on a tool has proven to be a royal pain for me. (for new effort, see http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1168.0)

The collection you get with the Thien is about 99%+ thus I personally don't think you gain much by adding additional filters on the exhaust.

I used a 4" port on the input of my Top Hat and don't see any issues, however the advice by retired2 is right-on.