J. Phil Thien's Projects

Well maybe i will ge some 5" hose and put the 6" I have in storage. If I remember it correctly folks have mused that 5" is actually optimal for this separator system. I could be wrong on that but I think that is how I remember it.

I finally am getting back to my separator build. Too much work and to little time lately.

I have a question about the bellmouth. I did find your info again retired2. You are using a 5" bellmouth. Does that allow you to exit your separator with a 6" outlet and hose or are you using 5" throughout? I already have the 6" hose and hardware and had planned on 6" hose. Just wondering since I know we have to make a sleeve over the end of the bellmouth if the choice of 5" is determined to end up with a 6" outlet and hose?

I noticed that my link to the potential source for inlets does work. Those folks have yet to get back to me though. I see that "Spiral" has inlets and Bellmouths. Maybe I will just get both pieces from them.

I have most of the components..the mdf, the ply, the hardboard....need the lexan sheet to cut and wood to build the support for the lexan. I think I know you used maple retired2. Anything particular drive that decision?

I might have found something for inlet pipe options!

There is a company in Tx....Duct Direct that shows duct reducers both round to round and square to round as well as angled reducers. They just show the relative dimensions on the graphics at their web site. The person I talked to who really needed to forward me on said they do that because they actually make these in a number of different flavors. She did go on to say they sell to everybody.

So I have a call in to them and a name to talk to. I will find out what I can and post it up here. If you look at their Spiral Pipe and Fittings page you will see a number of things that might work depending on what sizes are actually available. Look at an F50 for example if you go there.

Anyway I will post up more as soon as I know more.

This below is not a working link but it should be the right URL for the Spiral Pipe and Fittings page.

http://www.ductdirect.com/products/spiral-pipe-fittings.php

I gotta' say that the inlet pipe that is in DominicG's graphic looks so much like some of the HVAC reducers I have seen at web sites that I am really wondering if that is what it is. But when I go and look at the dims for the HVAC reducers I see at HVAC parts sites, nothing actually looks like something that would work dimensionally.

I might see if I can get my auto body shop friends to put something together for me. The last of the great tin knockers are knocking metal in body shops around the country. I would like something that really fits as it just looks like an obvious leakage opportunity.

Either that or I might just give up any thoughts of shaping the end to anything other than simplest if it means I don't get a real good seal there. I am thinking all of the effort to shape that air passage is for naught if there is any leakage there or maybe just as bad given the location, added air turbulence.

I wondered if what I was seeing in some of the graphics was actually support for the 0.25" hardboard baffle. Even cut back away from the slot I suspect that should really help support it.

Sounds like I will just have to learn to be a metal pounder. Although, I have a couple friends with a body shop. No way I can get them to do anything for me this time of year in New England! The place is choked with winter crash business. But maybe in a month or so if I am having trouble I might be able to get them to pound something out for me.

So I am gathering all the materials I will need for the bellmouth Thien Top Hat. Just a couple things I am trying to get straight in my head:
1. I am thinking that 0.50" thick MDF would be effective while being a bit less material to deal with. MDF can be messy. I want to use it but at a thickness that while sufficient maybe does not involve cutting away so much material. Do we generally think 0.50" is sufficient as a thickness?
2 I know the rigidity of the hardboard for the baffle has been an issue that has been discussed. Would it make sense to go thicker than 0.25" as a means of improving the rigidity? I know people have mentioned that thinner is better for the baffle but maybe 0.25" is just too thin. That said, I guess regardless of the thickness of the hardboard baffle, offering it more support at the edge of the slot makes sense. What do we think about some dimension thicker than 0.25" for the hardboard baffle?
3. I am really struggling with where to find the makings of the inlet pipe. From the drawings it looks like we need something tapered and either round or rectangular at the top hat end to fit up to the opening in the top hat itself. Any help with that as I just cannot find anything fabricated that way other than a few reducers, none of them dimensionally adequate to the task. I guess going round at both ends of the inlet pipe is an option. It does not appear to be a good one though and you are still left trying to get something with a taper I think. So what are people using for an inlet pipe? I really don't want to get stuck fabricating one if possible as the junction between pipe and top hat is going to be critical.
4. finally, any support for incorporating a neutral vane at the inlet?

Completely understand if folks think the last question is off the wall. I am really just asking so that if it is something worth considering I can think about the material I would need for it.

I have just done a ton of reading here the last few days and have downloaded many pages of information and dimensions for a top hat Thien. Initially I had myself convinced that I would build the simplest design I could find here. But after conducting a fair amount of research i come away pretty well convinced that I can build a top hat with bellmouth output about as well as i can build anything and I think I will have more of a separator for the effort. Coming up with some of the parts I am going to need might be difficult.  But that was going to be the case almost no matter what I decided to build as you often don't know how fittings are going to mate up until you have them in hand and I often have to make Internet purchases as there is not much to choose from locally.

I just wanted to take a moment to thank the board in general for the spirit of exploration and enthusiasm regularly exhibited here. I have a very simple dust separator attached to my DC now. I put it together using a commercially available lid it so that I would have a fall back separator as I endeavored to build a version of the separator lids discussed here with regularity. I am happy with servicing one power tool at a time with a dust collection system. So I am and will be using what on balance is probably middling sized equipment....a 1.5HP collector is at the heart of my system. But it is well made, quiet running and I have already equipped it with a canister filter. As I am sure many here are aware, canisters and cartridges are roundly criticized at some sites as simply accidents waiting to happen...that they represent a soon to be realized failure.

One reason I am taking the time to thank the members of this board is that before I did extensive reading here, I simply could not come to terms with what I was experiencing with nothing more than a modest lid, well sealed with appropriate accessories plus decent DC servicing a single tool and some of the comments you read at other sites. These are sites that would have you believing that the sky is falling or will be falling on you specifically unless you are willing to install a behemoth cyclone, likely cutting a hole in your ceiling so that those on the second floor could enjoy the top of your device. Of course according to some if you do not do this, you are in for massive clogging, massive rending of filters and a sure early visit to the morgue with lungs choked with dust. Now I don't mean to make light of a serous issue....respiratory problems do to woodworking dust. But I am more than a little disheartened by the degree some folks in the dust collection business will go to convince you that you stand no chance whatsoever of building even a decent 1 tool at a time system around a 1.5HP to 2 HP collector and a well made and sealed separator lid of the sort focused on at this site. I am not suggesting that we can without question claim we will suck up 100% of the finest particles and from what i have read here, people are very realistic here about what can be done.....what is possible. But I reject the idea that trying is futile. I reject the idea that the kinds of successes people here are able to achieve though ingenuity, cleverness, unfailing good spirit and hard work are not worthwhile just because they may not represent what $10,000 or more worth of commercial/industrial dust collection equipment and shop modifications is capable of doing.

I have work to do but it is work that will be fun, interesting and worthwhile and it will be work done along with other members of this board endeavoring to do the same or similar. There is something to be said just for that communal activity....something that rarely develops out of Internet based activity.

I just hope more people find this site before they get themselves all twisted in knots over what common sense and their own even limited experience seems to suggest and what so called experts insist is the only worthwhile thing to do with regard to small shop, big shop or any shop dust collection.

Anyway thank you all for this site, from the smallest contributor or member to the largest......thank you.

Thanks.

I think I will try working on the air velocity first combined with a narrower slot. While trying some things there, I will likely work up a "fin" design as it sounds like the one that would be easiest for me to execute.

That was perfect actually. My collection material is always going to be dust or fine dust. So I don't have to worry about larger material. Maybe my width should be less than the standard in order to do a better job of capturing up the dust and fine dust in the separator instead of seeing it go on to the DC.

I will probably end up trying anything that favors dust and fine dust at the expense of larger material. I am going to make sure the inlet finishes above the beginning of the 120* section of the baffle and the inlet will be directed at it and not over the 240* section.

How the dust hits that 120* section might be one of the most interesting aspects of these separator designs. Not sure what is optimal for dust versus larger material. If I had to guess i would guess trying to get the dust to hit the baffle and disrupt its flow is better than having it enter and stay suspended. I am going to try a 6" outlet opening and outlet hose in an effort to encourage the dust to stay in the Separator instead of seeing it going up the hose to the DC. The combination of a baffle and and inlet favoring dust and a 6" outlet may produce a worthwhile result. I just don't know but will very likely try it and see.

Thanks for responding and thanks for the corrections.

So thought I would try these two questions outside of the larger post I made in the wrong spot....being new here.

I produce only dust and fine dust as it relates to material I want my DC and separator to handle. I have read several posts here from folks suggesting that if your concern is mainly dust one should scrap the standard rule of thumb for the size of the drop (1/2 the size of the inlet) and go to something maybe as small as 0.75". My inlet is 4". So the standard formula would yield a drop 2" across. Wondering whether the recommendation of 0.75" is anecdotal, based on testing.....the opinion of experts, any of the above? So I figured I would ask and see what comes back for a response.

Also I know again from reading here that we want the end of the inlet elbow to come in right at the start of the solid 120" section of the baffle. We don't want it to come in over the drop. As it relates to height above the baffle, do we want the elbow to sit right on the top of the baffle? Do we want it just above of the baffle or does it really not matter as long as the end of the elbow is right where the 120* solid section begins?

I am truly impressed by Phil's efforts and the efforts of those that attempt to beat back the dust dragon.

Myself I think that the one thing some of us might have going for us is simplicity. In my case, much of my woodworking activity involves hand tools. I make chips more than I make dust and I make them in a way that allows me to clean then up without much trouble. My power activity is restricted to anything from dust to very fine dust and power tools that are not handheld are two only. I can feed dust from the handheld power tools into a simple dust collection system without much trouble fortunately and my actual tool drops are few and close by each other.

But this dust collection thing is such a complicated area of endeavor. Once you bring multiple drops over distance and different types of workshop materials for cleanup into the picture, the ability to suspend in air the really small dust particles long enough to get them into the spot where you want them collected, combined with things as large as wood chips is a tremendous challenge it would seem. In addition, it does not appear to me to be an environment where larger or more powerful in terms of blower is necessarily a big part of a solution. We would like to think we can always brute force our way through something. But it appears to me that particularly given the need to suspend really tiny dust particles, the right size blower for a particular system vs the largest is not just better but critical.

In my case, I have this Woodstock W1049 lid well sealed on a 30 gal. can for a separator and it works remarkably well. I fully expected that it would not work at all frankly. Yet at least to date, in a rather small sample size, everything that I am making with power appears to be finding its way to the bottom of the can under the lid. Now I have to believe that some very fine dust is up in my canister filter. But cranking the cleaning arm on the filter has yet to drive it down into the bag. My bag is still empty and everything appears to be in the garbage can.

So the things that have to be responsible for my good fortune to date are:
- proper sealing of fittings
- very limited number of drops (basically one 4" tool port and 1 drop to a hood which I also detach and midify for haldhelds)
- very short runs of hose (4" in and 6" out of the separator to the DC)

Honestly I just don't believe that my stretch of good luck will last much longer. So I am going to build a simple Thien in the sense of having it suspended inside the can as opposed to a top hat or I am going to build the simplest top hat version that has plans I can use. I am going to try to retain my 4" in 6" out approach to the hose. I suspect the difference between the two is helping to encourage the dust into the garbage can instead of heading for the impeller and filter of the DC. So I want to try to keep that I think.

I do have a question about the baffle. I saw one proponent of the Thien system who claimed that the baffle drop should be half the diameter of the inlet. So a 4" inlet would make a 2" drop. However in reading posts here, if you are producing mainly dust to fine dust there is the view that a smaller than standard drop is better. Is that anecdotal information or do you guys that really have a basis in information and experimentation agree with that view? If so, is there a size for the drop that makes the most sense? I have seen 0.75" forwarded as a possibility.

Again, I am never going to have a complicated system of multiple drops over distance. So the very reason this most simplistic solution that I have now works at all should also help me make a Thien work more reliably giving me more confidence that I will be surviving on more than blind luck......I hope.

New to the forum...most all of my woodworking activity revolves around carving and most of that is hand tool carving as I prefer it to power carving. Most of my power tool activity is in initial steps taking large blocks of wood down to the sizes and shapes I need for a particular carving. So I produce a good many chips in the carving activity that I pick up with a standard shop vac arrangement and everything power for me creates dust...some of it fine to very fine dust. Currently have a 1.5HP DC setup for that and a can with a Woodstock lid as a separator.