J. Phil Thien's Projects

It seems to me that DC blowers are better utilized with 4" hose (or greater), while shop vacs excel using 2 1/2" hose and smaller.  That said, I made a bucket-sized Thien separator for use with my Fein Turbo I that I use with my ROS, OSC, routers and benchtop bandsaw.  The setup does a great job at both collecting nearly all dust and chips at the source and separating the debris in the bucket so the filter in my vac never gets plugged.  I will say that the collection at the bandsaw is the least effective of all the machines I use this with, but it works much better than a 4" to 2" reducer hooked to my 50-760 DC.

My build was made with a 7 gallon pool chemical bucket.  I goofed up when I cut the hole in the side for the inlet, placing it much lower than I needed to.  However, the oversized top compartment may contribute to the excellent separation I realize, as in over 2 years of usage I have not had to clean the filter in the vac despite the fact that the majority of use is with my ROS.



Steve

I use Chrome and have never had problems displaying pics, I doubt that is the issue.

The side inlet eliminates a source of turbulence in the upper chamber, which in my opinion should increase the separation efficiency of the finer dust in the debris stream (less turbulence would allow more of the fine dust to hug the side of the pail until it could fall below the baffle).  This is conjecture on my part, but I must say this separator is very effective because in over two years of use with a random orbit sander, oscillating spindle sander, router/router table, general shop cleanup, cleaning the car, etc., I have yet to have the need to clean the filter in the vacuum.  I suspect that making the top chamber about twice as deep as needed and extending the outlet pipe further in (2" instead of the 3/4" recommended for an 1.5" outlet) may also be contributing to the working efficiency of this build, but again, I have no scientific "basis" for this feeling.

You may wish to track down a 7 gallon bucket as a separator for your current tools with the 2 1/4" port, to be used with your shop vac.  You may be able to pick one up at a swimming pool (it's a common size for pool chemicals to come in), apartment complex, etc.  You could also order one online, one source would be U.S. Plastic Corp.  After you get the baffle and the inlet/outlet installed you would still have at least 5 gallons of waste collection capacity.  The tools you have would be relatively light generators of dust and chips, nothing like the waste generated by a jointer or planer.  Another advantage of the 7 gallon bucket in this usage is the smaller diameter could improve the separation efficiency of finer dust particles, at least according to some who post here.

Here's a couple pics of the separator I set up for use with my Fein shop vac...







Edit to add a suggestion to get a CleanStream filter for your shop vac.  This will provide near HEPA quality filtering, improving the air quality in your shop.

My impression is that a side inlet configuration, by removing the fitting projecting into the top chamber, would have less turbulence.  Could this lead to increased separation efficiency, especially for the finest dust particles?  I only have anecdotal evidence to support this theory, as neither of my Thien separator builds utilize an inlet protruding through the top lid.  Both systems are extremely efficient at removing everything from the debris stream.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but thought I'd share anyway.  The "engineering" is specific to my Fein Turbo I but the concepts may be adaptable to other vacs.  The whole assembly rolls easily over my mostly smooth basement floor and is not overly top-heavy or "tippy".

I must also add that the debris separation of this build is spectacular.  After emptying the bucket several times over the last year+ and not using an inner bag in the bottom of the Fein, the CleanStream filter has zero caking and there is no dust in the bottom of the Fein.  This is my primary extractor for my ROS, oscillating spindle sander and router stations, so I'm sure I get plenty of fine dust through the system.

The first thing I notice about your plan is you'll have about $500 into it just from the blower and the pleated filter.  I don't know what a 2hp cyclone costs, around a $1000 or so?  I think you could get very good separation efficiency, especially with the tangental (side) inlet, if you paid very close attention to the tolerances you cut and fitted the various parts to and made sure you sealed all air leaks.  The large 55 gallon drum would be more tedious to empty than the smaller fiber drum under most cyclones.  Lifting the combined assembly of the blower housing AND the drum lid/baffle to empty the barrel would be a pain, as well.

That being said, as to the configuration: I would set the drum and the filter side by side, kind of like the cyclone from JDS.  Feed off of the blower housing with a short length of flex hose to an adaptor disk on top of the filter.  On the bottom of the filter, put a sealed box with a smallish clean-out tray.  Both the barrel and the filter assembly could ride on a common platform, but that would have a rather large footprint (if floorspace is a limiting factor).

Just shooting some random thoughts back at you.  It would be an interesting project and my gut says you could more or less equal the performance of a commercially available cyclone for somewhat less money.

I use to have an AP400 and now have a Delta 50-760, both of which have the same configuration for the blower housing.  After doing several prototypes using cardboard, I gave up and made a pre-separator using a trash can and a baffle, set on the platform underneath the inlet of the DC.  There were just too many gaps and offsets between the bag rim and the interior of the housing for me to deal with.  The biggest issue I saw was the offset of over an inch from the ring to the inside wall of the housing; I couldn't see how the debris could effectively drop off the wall down the slot.

I'm sure there is a CMF loss by going to a two stage system, but this can be more than offset by upgrading to a pleated cartridge from the felt bag.

I have a Delta 50-760 and can attest to it's effectiveness when hooked up to one machine at a time.  I bought it from Amazon about a year ago when Delta had a $50 rebate and my net cost was low enough that I splurged on a pleated canister filter from Wynn Environmental.  I've since placed a separator using Phil's baffle underneath and the system works very well.

I don't have any direct experience with the Jet but am quite satisfied with the value and performance of the Delta unit.  The reviews I've seen consistently rate the 50-760 at or near the top when compared to other 1.5 hp DC's.

Steve

The DC is a Delta 50-760 and the trash can has a 30 gallon capacity.  That's a 5" flex hose between the lid and the DC, right now I'm using a 5" to 4" reducer to to fit to the lid.  This is not an ideal solution as the fit is somewhat loose and allows an airleak.  Until I can figure something better, I just slapped some duct tape at the junction of the lid and adaptor.

There are a couple of negatives about my setup.  It got to be a pain to remove the lid when emptying the trash can, as there was insufficient clearance to the bottom of the DC.  I installed a "lift kit" on the support frame of the DC to increase the clearance, but now it's kinda wobbly plus too tall to roll under some HVAC ductwork when I need to use the DC with my planer or jointer.  For now I'm dealing with the shortcomings, but eventually I will reach a tipping point and become motivated to address the issues.  One thing I can't stress enough is how efficient the setup is at removing ALL material from the waste stream, even the fines. 

I stumbled across that lid at a yard sale for $5 and added a Thien baffle.  It's a very efficient separator; I've emptied the trash can several times now and only have less than a cup of dust in the plastic bag.  If you track down and seal any air leaks and keep the amount of flex hose between the separator and DC to a minimum, the CFM loss is acceptable.  You can't see it in the pics, but where the hose meets the lid the connector extends below the bottom of of the lid by an inch or so.  This is important for maximizing the separation efficiency.

Quote from: mdwatkins on March 05, 2009, 12:30:50 PM

Quote from: Brian Marks on February 22, 2009, 03:35:09 PM


I will report back once I have some stuff to "suck up."  Thanks to Phil for the idea and plans -- I will be sure to make a donation.

Brian I really like what you've done here. I've been toying with running with the Wynn filter as well. Have you had a chance to put the system to use as of yet? I'm interested to learn how much "flour" is making its way to the filter with the pre-catch in place.

Matt

Matt, I've been using a preseparator under my 50-760 for several months now.  The main differences from Brian's is I'm using on old style Jet separator lid with the baffle hung below it and it's on a 30 gallon trash can.  To be honest, I don't think my setup is optimized since the debris stream doesn't enter the system tangental to the barrel's side.  That being said, I am happy to report that almost no "flour" is getting past the preseparator.  After emptying the trash can several times, there appears to be less than a half cup of dust in the bottom of the plastic bag.  I haven't taken the bag off to inspect what's up inside the Wynn filter but I did blow some compressed air through it recently, and no additional dust fell into the bag.

I picked up one of these Jet separator lids at a garage sale recently, figuring it was cheap enough to try to experiment with.  I had to make an MDF rim to make the lid fit a 30 gallon steel trash can, but that didn?t prove too difficult.

I did place a Thein baffle 5? below the lid, with the inlet of the lid at approximately halfway on the 120 degree tab.  Unfortunately, I had recently emptied my older DC so I had very little material with which to test the setup.  Hopefully I?ll get off work at a decent time sometime this week and run a few boards through the tablesaw and planer.  I?ll post results and pictures at that time.  The initial "test" of some dust near the TS and chips around the drill press had everything stay in the bottom of the trash can, with no evidence of anything in the DC bags...