J. Phil Thien's Projects

Quote from: RonS on October 05, 2014, 12:47:35 PM
Here are some another sites that carry Woodworking dust collection supplies. I purchased all my 5" metal ducting and flex hose from these companies. Fast delivery, good selection and price.

Winn Engineering:
http://wynnenv.com/products-page/woodworking_hose/

Kencraft
http://www.kencraftcompany.com/Dustindex.htm

Yup! I ordered my 5" and 6" flex hose from KenCraft yesterday. I also ordered a 5 x 5 x 5 Wye. They were a good bit more economical than Oneida or Grizzly

back in 1999 I built this half cocked cyclone separator for use with my little 1HP DC1B. It was based on a cyclone tube shell (the upper portion of a cyclone without the cone). It's about 16" dia and had a 4" dust inlet and a 4" blower intake.

I used it with my router table, jointer and planer. It actually worked pretty well as long as the debris level didn't get near the blower intake pipe! After that it was just a pass through.  :)





I also got tired of the amount of room this took up. And after reading all the threads about the benefits of the Thien style baffle arrangement I decided it was high time for a retrofit. Another reason for this alteration of the old design was the fact that I am about to replace my old DC1B with a 3HP Reliant. Once the Reliant is installed I still want a pre-separator for those times I use my jointer, planer, or router table. But I want it to be more compact and efficient

With that in mind I scrounged around and found some 1/4" hardboard and 1/2" plywood. These were used for the baffle. Once I had the base materials ready I started on modifying the old cyclone separator.

I unmounted it from it's base and then cut the tube shell down by 7". I also cut the base down so that it conformed to the shape of the separator and took less room.

I shorted the dust intake pipe length by about 4". Once that was done I used by router and circle jig to make the baffle.



Once the baffle was installed I used it to help me re-size the length of the blower intake pipe. I cut it down so that it was 1-1/2" above the baffle. After that I was able to re-install it and start on the trash can.

Since the old base for the trash can was HUGE I decided to make a new one. I ended up spending more "quality time" with my router and circle jig. I made a perfectly sized disk that fit into the underside of the trashcan perfectly. I drilled holes for the (4) re-purposed swiveling casters and then gave it several coats of finish to weather proof it a bit.



And here is the completed unit.





Yeah, it's not as clean looking as some of the other ones posted here. But my goal was to see how well the design modifications worked

I am a lot more pleased with the ease that this can be moved and how much LESS room it takes up. My plan is to have this baby moved off to the side and only pulled out when it's needed.

I tested it out with the DC1B and was happy with the level of separation. The real test will be when I install the new Reliant 3HP DC and see how that behaves

Quote from: jdon on September 25, 2014, 03:45:26 PM
1) When you state "before" the separator, do you mean as a standalone build, as opposed to one that's built inside the DC (just below the intake port and above the waste bag? If so, I suppose it has some additional effect on performance, but I can't say how much. OTOH, with it before, you avoid most of the chips (and more dangerous pieces) from reaching the impeller. Also, emptying a trash can is usually easier than those bags.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. A stand alone separator/cyclone will rob the system of pressure/airflow to the tune of at least 2 psig. If I install a Thien baffle in my DC1B I'm not sure I'd get much of a benefit from it. The DC is STILL underpowered for my pipe run.

Quote from: jdon on September 25, 2014, 03:45:26 PM
2) IMO, there's not much readily available (certainly for the price) that can beat a Wynn filter for collection efficiency, including the 1 micron bags on the 2 hp PSI. I haven't looked much, but am not aware of any bag that matches a pleated cartridge filter. IIRC, the Wynn has over 200 sq ft of filtering area, which improved performance from reduced back pressure.

I got a quote from AFF for (2) OEM replacement filter bags at $156. From what I understand they are sized a bit bigger than they need to be and will be a tiny bit more efficient. The Wynn Filters are $177 each and that means $354 for (2). That's double my budget!

Quote from: jdon on September 25, 2014, 03:45:26 PM
3) Unless you don't have the space, I'd think hanging onto the Reliant would be preferable to the 2 hp PSI. If you can't afford two Wynn filters to set it up, maybe you could get one for now, and do one of two things:

a. If the Wynn would fit your DC1B, use it there for the time being; it would improve performance, and maybe even offset putting in a Thien. When your budget allows, get a second Wynn, and put both on the Reliant.

Quote from: jdon on September 25, 2014, 03:45:26 PM
b. Get one Wynn filter and install it onto one of the housings. Put a baffle into the "y", to block air flow to the other housing. Even with using only half of the collector, with the surface area of the Wynn (compared with bags), you're still probably ahead with air flow. (Just a thought, and based on no personal experience).

When I first called Wynn Environmental I ended up speaking to Dick Wynn (!) about this very subject. He recommended that I DON'T go this route. I believe that he based this upon the cost for a filter sized to handle the doubled airflow as well as the time I would spend modifying the DC to make this work. In the end he pointed me the article in FWW that detailed Phil's baffle set up.

Back in 1999 I bought a Penn States DC1B 1Hp DC. It's reported flow through is about 850CMF @ 6.5psig

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC1BXL-1M.html?prodpage=1DC

Shortly after I got it, I built a trashcan cyclone on my own design. Think of the upper part (what we used to call the "tube shell") of your typical cyclone with no cone. It sits right on top of a 20 1/2" dia steel trash can. Initially it WILL separate the chips from the fines. But as the debris builds up in the trashcan,  it would suck it right up. Anyway, I've wanted to built a better separator and saw the designs being used here. So I drew it up and was getting ready to build it.

HOWEVER, I have a small shop with a very simple dust collection installed. It's just a couple of runs of 4" sewer pipe that lead to 3 locations. One leg has the "cyclone" separator in line and it's used for my router table, planer, jointer, and lathe. Another run goes to my Drill Press and Tablesaw. While the third goes to my bandsaw. Other than the one going to the bandsaw, I don't think that any of the legs are longer than 10 to 15 feet. And yes, the elbows are kept to a minimum. Over all it's been in use for about 10 years or more and it works OK. But it does leave dust behind.Still, it's better than nothing

My original plan was to install my newly built Thien Separator in front of the 1HP DC and then having ALL of the lines go through it. After some thought I am reconsidering this. From what I remember from my days in the dust collection business, a Cyclone will steal about 2 Psig from your DC. So I would be reducing the performance on all of the pipe runs. And with this little DC, I'm not sure that's a good way to go.

Now let's complicate matters.  :) :) I have a Reliant 3HP DC that I got when Woodworker's Warehouse went out of business back in 2002 (?). It's pretty much New In Box (NIB). But I have two issues with it. First, it has the crappy stock filter bags. And to upgrade it to 1 Micron bags will cost me over $200. I also called Wynn Filters and got a price for (2) of their canister filters for this unit. It would cost me just over $350 to upgrade to those filters and even then I'd have to install a Thien baffle to make them more efficient.

Secondly it takes up more than DOUBLE the amount of room that my DC1B takes up. And in my garage/shop, floor space is at a PREMIUM.

So, knowing that I want to install this in conjunction with my small dust collection pipe system, I guess my questions are:

1.) Am I correct in assuming that installing the separator BEFORE by little 1HP DC will make it less efficient (in regards to conveying power) for my dust collection pipe system? In other words, it will be so much power loss that it will make matters worse.

2.) Would I be better served by selling the Reliant (and maybe my 1HP DC1B) and buying a 2HP DC like the PSI DC DC2000B?

3.) OR would it be a better idea to upgrade the 3HP Reliant with (2) new filter bags AND install a Thien Baffle in each of the 2 drums?

Thanks,
Dominic

ORBlackFZ1,
Thanks for the recommendations! I really appreciate them. That link to the 5" dia flex hose from Grizzly is just what I was looking for.  :)

Once I start building my separator I will order that hose so it'll be here in time.

OK, I finished the layout for my separator


This will be hooked up to my Penn States 1HP DC1B. I have a very very simple, short run of (2) 4" dia PVC pipes that can be hooked to my bandsaw, tablesaw, lathe (when sanding), surface planer or jointer via a short run of flex hose. None of y tools are more than 12 to 15 feet away from the DC. This system works OK with my current rather inefficient trashcan separator. So I'm pretty sure the installation of this new separator will be an improvement.

My new Separator has a 5" air inlet since my DC has the same size. As I mentioned before, I need to find a source for 5" flex tubing or just use 6" (which I'd rather not do). If I can't find 5" PVC tubing, fittings, and flex hose, I may end up using 5" HVAC fittings. Not optimal, but better than nothing.

Like the model shown in this thread, the dust inlet for the separator is 3 7/8" x 5 7/8". I have a 4" round to rectangular transition shown in my model.  Unless someone tells me that'll cause unending problems, that's what I planned on using.

I planned on buying a HVAC fitting and modifying it to fit, making my own transition, or finding someone to make it for me. I have AutoCad Inventor and their sheet metal package does a nice job of providing flat layouts on sheet metal components.

Any comments?

Thanks to all who participated in this thread. Especially sk1pp3r for the Sketchup model. Using rough dimensions from that model helped me design my own. I drew up mine in AutoDesk Inventor.

Once I get the drawings all finalized I will post a link to a PDF version of them.


I also need to find an economical (and local) source for 5" or 6" flex hose and light wall pvc sewer pipe. This separator isn't going to do much good unless I can connect it to my DC. And that has a 5" OD inlet.